radio53 (July 14, 2008 at 9:47 pm)

I must mention the fire support given by the Allied navies. On one a occasion a concentration of Tiger I's was detected. Very accurate naval gunfire lead by HMS Warspite with her 15" guns obliterated the Tigers. One must have made a direct hit as appartently the tank simply "disappeared". Unlucky!

radio53 (July 14, 2008 at 9:44 pm)

Infantry anti-tanks guns made-up many of the German tank losses. Even a well sighted 6pdr (57mm in US parlance and use) was a potent threat to a tank especially in the flanking position which they wer eoften placed. With the British APDS round it was a real thumper. Add to there the man-held bazookas and PIAT's then we see how wary tanks crews had to be. Last but not least was artillery. No tank crew could stand the stonking some tanks received from heavy divisional ARTY.

radio53 (July 14, 2008 at 2:50 pm)

Centurion tank to Europe but arrived a few days too late to get into action. However by then the German armoured forces ceased to exist so I don't think much would have been learnt. I'd be wary of USAAF and RAF claims for tanks destroyed. Careful battle field study in Normandy showed that many claimed air kills were false and they often shot up the same tank many times over and made new claims! A factor often forgotten in Normandy was the anti-tank units of the infantry and of course the....

radio53 (July 14, 2008 at 2:45 pm)

By late June 1944 as the Normandy campaign stagnated to some extent most American armoured commanders knew what the TD concept really meant. It was at the end of the discarded with almost indecent haste and little regret. What was really needed was something with the Firefly's gun power and the armour of a Pershing M26. It did arrive but not until the closing stages of WWII in Europe so that the big M26 made little difference. The British rushed to Germany the Centurion tank

OPE08 (July 14, 2008 at 1:40 pm)

No, the US stuck to the idea of the TD throughout the war, and the idea of adopting a UK cannon was probably not well received, especially for a tank that was not supposed to challenge other tanks! To be fair the 17pndr on the Achilles/M10 worked wonderfully, as well as the latter 90mm on the M10.In the end, while we find it hard to swallow, it is true that the Sherman didn't need to be a tank-killer while the Allies enjoyed Air Supremacy, ALL German tanks were doomed under a P47 or P38...

radio53 (July 14, 2008 at 10:21 am)

The British offered 500 17pdr conversion kits to the US Army that could have been fitted in the field but few were taken. I suspect that by the time the deliveries started the breakout from Normandy in July was taking place and the need lessened to some extent. However I have seen photographs of US Shermans with 17pdrs installed.

radio53 (July 14, 2008 at 9:54 am)

Both guns were had almost exactly the same calibre, the 17pdr had 76.2 but hardly a significant difference. After Bradley talked to Eisenhower about it Ike went ballistic (no pun intended...) and gave the US Ordance Board a roasting but not a lot came from it.

radio53 (July 14, 2008 at 9:46 am)

All I know of the 76mm US gun was that at Woolwich they could never get enough velocity out of it to make it egual to the 17pdr. It did however have a much better HE shell as the 17pdr ammunition for the Firefly's was quite poor. If you put a 17pdr AP round next to a 76mm US one you'll see how much longer the former is. I suspect that was the key plus better propellant. US tank crews were aghast when they tried out the new 76mm in Normandy. The grumblings quickly made their way to Omar Bradley!

OPE08 (July 14, 2008 at 4:03 am)

Poorer round, not strictly speaking a poorer gun, both are effectively 76mm no? The Sherman 76 performed much better with the apds round, tho CERTAINLY never as well as the 17pndr...

radio53 (July 13, 2008 at 8:38 pm)

The 17 pdr gun fitted to some British/Canadian and the odd US crewed Shermans had no trouble punching through the Tiger I's frontal 110mm thick armour at battle ranges. The US 76mm gun was however a rather poorer gun although I have read that the Woolwich boffins had some useful reslults in tests after "pepping up" the propellant with some added mix.